{"id":3964,"date":"2019-07-22T11:11:00","date_gmt":"2019-07-22T15:11:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/practicalmattersjournal.ecdsdev.org\/?p=3964"},"modified":"2019-07-22T11:11:08","modified_gmt":"2019-07-22T15:11:08","slug":"practicing-re-imagination","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/pmcleanup.ecdsdev.org\/2019\/07\/22\/practicing-re-imagination\/","title":{"rendered":"Practicing Re-Imagination: An Interview with Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
Download PDF: Curtis and Zoltan, Practicing Re-Imagination<\/a><\/h5>\n\n\n\n
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While many of the\narticles in this issue address new directions in the academic study of\nreligious practices, innovations and transformations of religious practices themselves\nare happening among practitioners all the time. To understand more about one\nway that traditional Judeo-Christian sacred reading practices are being\nreimagined in contemporary times, <\/em>Practical\nMatters recently spoke with Vanessa\nZoltan, co-host of the podcast Harry Potter and the Sacred Text<\/a>.\nFounded by graduates of Harvard Divinity School (HDS), each week the podcast\nconsiders one chapter of the Harry Potter series through the lens of a particular\ntheme. Similarly to studies of traditional sacred texts, the hosts use stories,\nblessings, and a rotating docket of sacred reading practices to pay close\nattention to the text and consider its meaning for real lives and communities.\nAnd yet, Harry Potter and the Sacred Text is intentionally built to be\nwelcoming of those of any faith, or no faith at all. <\/em>Practical Matters editor Cara Curtis sat down with Vanessa\nZoltan to learn more about the origins of the podcast, the community that has\nformed around it, and its creators\u2019 thoughts about how the project fits into a\nchanging landscape of religious practice.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

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CC:<\/strong> Thanks again for sitting down with me; I think this will fit really well with what we’re trying to do in this issue. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> I’m honored that you reached out!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> I’m sure you’ve told this story many times, but I thought it would be nice to hear about the origin story of the podcast, your memories of that, and what jumps out from that part of the story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> Yeah, it’s important for me to think about because I can’t remember all of it: it\u2019s like, when did an idea occur to you? So many people helped, so many people are involved in an idea. But I was at HDS, and I was there because I’d worked in education for 10 years, and I came to the conclusion that\u2014I’m trying to figure out how to say this in a non-offensive way\u2014that we basically know how to educate kids. We, as a culture, know how. And America just hasn’t reckoned with this original sin of slavery, and hatred of different races, so we as a culture just don’t believe that black and brown children deserve to learn. And so I was just frustrated working in education. I was like, why are we talking about things that don’t matter? That’s <\/em>the thing that matters. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

It’s not that I thought that I could fix that, it\nwas that I wanted to go where that conversation was happening. It seemed like a\nmore interesting conversation than a fake conversation about education. And so,\neventually I did research and was like\u2014okay, the most interesting conversations\nabout race are happening within the field of religion. And then I just didn’t\nthink a whole lot about the fact that I’m an atheist, and I came to divinity\nschool. And, I knew that my interest in having this conversation was tied up in\nthe fact that I’m the grandchild of four Holocaust survivors, so I know,\npersonally, what dumb hatred can do. We see it in this country in terms of\nthings like water access, and education, but my family saw it\ndifferently. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so I came to HDS and I realized, oh, this not\nbelieving in God thing is going to be hard. I started going to services, and\none of the central prayers in Judaism that’s at almost every service is called\nthe Amidah. And in it, you praise God for his benevolence, and I was like: God\nsure as hell forgets about a lot of people. And I could just never get past\nabout half the prayer. And so, I asked Stephanie Paulsell, one of our favorite\nprofessors, if she would teach me how to pray using Jane Eyre<\/em>, because Jane Eyre<\/em>\nis my favorite book and I only had positive associations with it. And she said yes<\/em>.\nShe said, “Yeah, let’s do that for a semester”\u2014so we did. And it was\ngreat. It was great to spend a whole semester reading one book, and she taught\nme all these different prayer methods. One of the things that we decided about\ntreating something as sacred, is that a community says it is sacred. That you\ncan’t pray with something in a vacuum: like how you need a “gym\nbuddy.” And so she was like, “Go, find a community.” I was the\nassistant humanist chaplain at a tiny congregation here, and so I sent it out\nas an announcement in the newsletter. I was like, “Hey, on Tuesday nights\nfrom 7:00 to 8:30 I’m going to be reading Jane\nEyre<\/em> as sacred.” And four amazing women came, and they came every\nweek. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then on one of the last weeks, my friend\nCasper came, and he was like, “I think what you’re up to is really cool. I\nthink it would be better with a book people actually read.” [Laughter.]\nAnd I said, “Ah, what book do people actually read? People read Jane Eyre<\/em>!” And he was like, “Um,\nHarry Potter<\/em>.” And I thought, oh\nthat’s good.<\/em> [Laughing again.] And I truly believe you can treat the\nsecular as sacred with almost any book, but Harry\nPotter<\/em> is uniquely qualified. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> That\u2019s beautiful, the whole story. And the thread that makes me think of is community. It’s so apparent from the podcast that it includes not only you all as hosts, but also your producer Ariana, Stephanie Paulsell, the musicians, and the volunteers, and then the listening community. How do you think the fact of having these multiple layers of community has shaped the podcast, your experience of it, what it’s become?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> To some extent I think I’ve created my perfect community, because I’m an introvert, and I don’t like to leave the house. And so I get to engage with people, and then I get to go home. I grew up as a pretty typical Jew where you only went on High Holiday services, and going to live shows feels like that: like, wahoo, all these people, and now I’m going to go home to my room. [Laughter.] But the layers of community are incredible. We now have thirty local groups that meet across the world, and we have a closed Facebook group that has 1,500 people in it, who are just constantly talking to each other. And I don’t go to those groups\u2014I\u2019m in the Facebook group, but I’m never commenting or anything. And that’s incredibly meaningful. We say that we will only know that this podcast is truly a success when there’s a baby that came from the community. [Laughing.] So we really tried hard to put some structures in for people to meet each other, because it’s unsustainable for it to be based around us. It can’t be based around our personalities\u2014it has to come from the practices. It becomes cult-like if it’s about the leaders. And so we’re very much not the leaders. We are the text that people meet about, but we are also completely separate from it. Which feels sustainable and good. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then the thing to me that’s so meaningful\nabout the community is just how we would be bad without it. When we decided to\nswitch from a small reading group\/class to the podcast, we went and met with\nall of our favorite professors, and said, “How do we do this?” There\nare just so many people who we met with, and now we’re in that kind of dialogue\nwith our listening community. I have learned so much about things I’ve said\npoorly. I worked in education, and 15 years ago in education, you said that\nsomeone “had autism,” not that they “were autistic,” and I\nthink we’ve gotten a hundred emails saying, “That’s not true anymore,\nVanessa.” So you get to stay up on things that are not in your\nfield. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then the other really nice thing is that I\nshared a story about something that my best friend did for me, and she now gets\nfan mail, which I love. People write in saying, “Please thank Kim. I\nstarted antidepressants because of Kim.” So it feels like Kim is a part of\nit, and other people, because we tell stories on every episode. So it feels\nlike so, so many people are a part of it. It literally wouldn’t exist without a\nteam of people, and then it certainly would be much worse if we didn’t have\nsuch amazing listeners. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC: <\/strong>Yes\u2014and along with that, something else I was really excited to talk about is that process of bringing people in, or creating a space that can hold a diversity of folks in terms of their journeys with religion. And especially, creating a space that is doing this sacred reading but is welcoming in people who don’t believe in God or are alienated from that world. And so I’m wondering if there are reactions or things you typically hear from those folks, and\/or practices that you all engage in to create a space that’s welcoming to them as well as folks who are like, “Well, the Bible’s really important to me, and I’m unsure about this from that angle.” <\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> The title of our project sounds so kooky: “Harry Potter<\/em> is a sacred text!” But, its accidental genius is that you have to buy in if you’re going to listen. And so I think that true haters just don’t start it. If you are totally not open to religion, a die-hard atheist, you avoid the word “sacred.” And if you’re devoutly religious and would be offended by something other than the Bible being treated as sacred, you’re also not going to listen. What we do have is these people who are right on the margins of that, and who just love Harry Potter<\/em> so much that they’re like, “Okay, I guess I’ll go with this.” Some of my favorite comments that I get speak to this. I used to be a part of an atheist community, and I think everyone knows this, but atheist communities are often incredibly toxic for women. So I hear from a lot of women who are like, “I am an atheist and it’s just so nice to hear a woman talk about atheism”\u2014and to have someone who is respectful and loves religion talk about atheism. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then the other thing I love to hear is people\nwho say, “I have been traumatized by my church” \u2013you know, I’m queer\nand Baptist, grew up in the South,”\u2014like read from a script\u2014”but your\npodcast has helped me come back to religion.” You know, not in their congregations\nof origin. And that<\/em> feels like a really lovely thing. So, people leaning\ninto their atheism or people leaning back into their religion feels like a\nlovely thing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC: To me, it’s incredible to think about the\ncommunities that have formed, those folks from different ends of the spectrum\nfinding each other and being in community\u2014because we all know that many of us\njust don’t really talk to people that are different from us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> Right, right. I keep saying this: I would love for someone to write a thesis on us. The thing that I’m most interested in is whether or not what we’re up to is effective chaplaincy. Because a lot of our chaplaincy at this point happens in our inbox. Is email an appropriate form of chaplaincy? Or are these local reading groups, with no trained facilitators? We’ve applied for a couple of grants to be able to run facilitative leadership workshops for our groups, but we don’t have the money yet. So I’m like, are these terrible for people? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> That’s really interesting, because I know there is more and more work around digital and online communities\u2014but email is a whole other angle, and it makes a lot of sense for you guys. Do you all try to individually respond?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ: <\/strong>We were. We can’t anymore, for a few reasons. It was unhealthy for me to read so many things about myself\u2014or really, it’s that I’m bad at responding (“Screw you! You don’t like my voice? Stop listening to our podcast!”). That kind of thing. So we no longer respond to every email. We read every single one, and we respond with resources to the ones that seem to be in acute crisis. I’d say we respond to over 60%. We don’t respond to negative emails, and we don’t respond to fan theories, just because there’s a Facebook group for that\u2014and they’re fun to read, but we don’t need to respond. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

But if somebody is sharing something really\npersonal, we respond with a sort of “bearing witness” message:\nthanking them for sharing their story, responding to the story a little bit.\nAnd that’s it. And I don’t know if we should think of our email inbox as a kind\nof void that people can just send things into\u2014like I believe in the magic of\nwriting and trusting that that process was enough for them\u2014or if we’re doing\nsomething wrong. We have a responder up saying we read every email but can’t\nrespond to them all, so we’re managing expectations. I just think our email\ninbox would be interesting for a grad student, because all the data is there.\nSomeone do it!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> Yeah\u2014and hearing you talk about it, all the principles align with my understanding of the foundations of pastoral care: you can’t fix, you have to just be there. But I also hear you in this dilemma of, this is a totally new format\u2014so, what are we doing?!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> Well, and with a real relationship, like when I was a congregational chaplain, when one of our members was in the hospital, I would go visit them. And then the community would coordinate things like making sure there was soup in their fridge when they got home. And then you asked us to do your wedding, and you came to a funeral with us. And there’s none of that. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> Right, so it really sounds like this is where it’s at the very edges of being figured out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> But our perceptions of these things have changed. Ten years ago, there was an HBO comedy where Lisa Cooper was playing an online therapist, and it was about how funny that was. But I have a friend now who is a new mom on maternity leave, and she’s really struggling, and she can’t go to therapy\u2014and she Skypes with her therapist, and it’s so helpful. And ten years ago, it was a joke. But what a gift that a mom who can’t get out of the house can still talk to her therapist. So I don’t know if we’re doing a disservice to the world of chaplaincy, or if we’re on the cutting edge of something. [Laughing.] I don’t know!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> It’s really interesting to hear how you all are figuring that out, (VZ: or, not figuring it out!) well, in process! But I wanted to go back to pick up on a thread you were talking about when you said you loved hearing from women atheists\u2014just because one really lovely part of the podcast has been your choice to always bless a female character in the “blessing” section of each episode. And then, this new podcast you and Ariana are running called the \u201cWomen of Harry Potter<\/em>.\u201d So I wanted to hear a bit about your process of coming to that decision originally, and then whether you’ve changed in how you’ve thought about it over the course of the podcast, this new piece, and just in general how this feminist piece is fitting in for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> The choosing to bless women\u2014I just love limitations, they create the opportunity to see things that you wouldn’t otherwise get to see. And that’s always exciting. I was an English major, learned a lot from feminist theory, and a lot of my favorite books are retellings from the woman’s point of view. I love retellings because I love spoiled books\u2014like the The Penelopiad<\/em> by Margaret Atwood, where she retells The Odyssey from the point of view of the women back home. And like Longbourn<\/em> by Jo Baker, which is a retelling of Pride and Prejudice<\/em> from below-stairs. I always like that. And when we started the podcast\u2014Hillary was about to become president. And Harvey Weinstein was just a jerk. And so the reason for the Women of Harry Potter<\/em> podcast is that it’s become more and more important to me personally. Accidentally! But the books that I’m drawn to right now: I keep reading these feminist memoirs, just constantly. Jessica Valenti, Lindy West, Roxane Gay\u2014I just can’t get enough of them. It’s an exciting moment in feminism: there were like 30 years where there wasn’t as much of a feminist movement. And there is, again. It’s just super exciting. There is all this content: I’m in the middle of the Lorena Bobbitt documentary, and I loved the Slow Burn <\/em>season about the Monica Lewinski scandal. So I feel like we’re in this moment of retelling stories from the women’s point of view. Like when the Monica Lewinsky scandal happened, it was all about Bill Clinton. And when Lorena Bobbitt cut off John Bobbitt’s penis, it was like, “That poor man!” <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so, it’s just an exciting moment in feminism\nwhere we are telling these stories that speak to the question, “Where was\nthe woman?” And so I’ve really enjoyed putting my attention toward that in\nthe Harry Potter<\/em> books. You know,\nJoanne Rowling was told by a publisher to call herself “J.K.” because\nlittle boys weren’t going to read a book about a little boy wizard written by a\nwoman. So it’s just exciting to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> Yeah. And has there been community feedback on that? Or what has that been like?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> I don’t get a lot of comments on it, which also means I don’t get a lot of negative comments on it, aside from a couple men saying, “You call yourself a humanist? Men are humans too!” (And actually, I don’t call myself a humanist anymore. It’s not a political stance, it’s not an interesting word to me anymore.) I’ve heard some positive things about it, but generally, it’s similar to the barrier to entry of getting into the podcast: I announced the plan for it on the first episode, so people who have real feelings about it just don’t really engage with Episode 2. I’ve heard a couple lovely comments about how people were resisting the word “feminist” and now they feel more comfortable with it. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC: <\/strong>Yeah, that’s really cool. And this also makes me think, more broadly: you all have talked on the podcast about the process of choosing the sacred reading practices that you do. Could you talk about that a bit, both the process of choosing them and the process of adapting them for the podcast format, working with them over time, etc.? [Editor\u2019s note: please see http:\/\/www.harrypottersacredtext.com\/spiritual-practice-resources<\/a> for more information and resources related to the practices discussed in the following conversation.]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ: <\/strong>So Havruta was the only one I knew before doing this. And the other ones we had teachers teach us. Like, really simply. So Stephanie taught me Lectio Divina when we were doing our independent study on Jane Eyre, <\/em>and I just kept hating some of the God language around it. Like, “What does God want you to do with this passage?” I’m like, “I don’t know! Kill babies?” It made me grumpy. And so, you know, Stephanie is always wise, and said, “If the question isn’t helping you, ask yourself a different question.” And so, she and I adapted that one together, to make it more inclusive. And that sort of gave me permission to do that. And Casper uses a word that may actually come from Krista Tippett: “spiritual technologies.” All technologies are meant to be adapted: we all use knives slightly differently. And as long as it’s chopping, safely, it doesn’t really matter. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

So Stephanie really gave us permission to do\nthat, and now we invite teachers on to teach us new practices, and then with\nthe help of our producer Ariana, and some thought, we adapt it for the podcast.\nAnd some of them evolve over time: I feel like we just recently got good at\ndoing Floralegium. We just added a step in our practice where we talk about why\nthat quote sparkled at us, and that’s been really helpful. But it took us like\nthree years to get there. So it’s definitely a continuous process.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The only hard-and-fast rule we have about the\nsacred reading practices is that while we love having other guests on to teach\nus about non-Judeo-Christian practices, we do not want to be appropriating\nother cultures, so we do not continue those practices on our own. I feel very\nconfident owning the Jewish stuff, Casper feels very confident owning the\nChristian stuff, and at this point I will do the Christian practices even when\nI’m doing something on my own\u2014I feel very much like they’re mine at this point.\nBut, [Buddhist] chanting, for example: chanting is a great practice that I will\nnever lead. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC: <\/strong>And I’ve appreciated how you’ve explained that on the podcast, because I think that’s a thing that might not occur to everyone. So I’ve appreciated the thoughtfulness with which you’ve said: these practices are wonderful, and this is why we’re not doing them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> Right. We’ve gotten a couple requests\u2014and this came from the community, it wasn’t something we had specifically articulated to ourselves\u2014but somebody wrote in and said, “It would be great if you taught us more about religion.” And we thought about it, and we were like, “Well, we’re not a world religion podcast.” And we’re not experts in world religions. We could read you Wikipedia entries, but there are probably great podcasts out there about world religions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC: <\/strong>Right. And if this podcast is a gateway to that interest, that’s fantastic!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> Right. But we’re not religious educators. That’s not what we do. So questions like that are really helpful. You’re like, “Hey, should<\/em> we do that?” And then you’re like, “No, and this is why.” And it helps you figure out who you are and who you’re not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> Yeah. And it’s great to hear you guys think through your process and be transparent about that. And this has been a great conversation overall. One thing I wanted to make sure we got to, because it ties back both to what you guys are doing and to what our journal is about, is this idea of practice. There’s this idea from the Aristotelian tradition about how engaging in a practice over time changes you and shapes you. So zooming out as a closing question, as you look over your time with this podcast over the last few years, are there ways that you feel like you’ve been shaped or changed by this practice? Anything you might not have expected?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ: <\/strong>Oh yeah. First of all, I think I now believe in just doing things. That feeling of, I don’t know how this will end, but I’ll know it by its fruits. And the process will change it. Which makes you just a little bit believe in magic. “I’m just gonna do this thing, and we’ll see what happens!” And it’s just made me much more willing to do practices and to see them as blessings. Like I always walked my dog, but now I’m like, “No, this is my sacred time,” where I listen to an audiobook or podcast, and am focused on another creature, and it’s changing my body\u2014I am now someone who walks five miles a day every day, and my quads are reflected in that. And seeing that not as a chore, but as part of me. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so we’re working on this romance\nnovel project<\/a>. And there’s an app where you can upload a chapter a\nweek until you finish a romance novel. And I was like, “I have no idea\nwhat this process will give me, but I’m going to do it.” I’m only a couple\nof weeks in, but it’s so fun to just have to put words to the page. And so I\nthink I’m more open to the mystery, rather than I used to do things assuming I\nknew why I did them. And this new way I think creates more space in your life\nto quit things, because you’re like, “I’ll know this by its fruits, and\nthis is stressing me out, and that’s all it’s giving me.” But it’s really\ncreated space for me to become more experimental. As someone who loves being\nhome and is a real homebody, that’s been a real gift to me. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> And that ties back really well to what you were saying about the reading practices. Saying, “We added this piece to Floralegium, and it got so much better.” And I’m similar, I like to have a plan, so that’s really cool to hear about opening to that process.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> Yeah. Because I never could have guessed what that Jane Eyre<\/em> independent study with Stephanie was going to give me. So I’ve really learned about experimenting with things. Which is really what chaplaincy is: it’s about being present, and not knowing what a conversation is going to bring you. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And it’s not always going to be pleasant. Like in\ntreating Jane Eyre<\/em> as sacred, I realized it is in many ways a\nracist, colonial, oppressive book. I still love it, but it’s not always going\nto feel good. And I walk the dog in terrible weather. So it’s not always\npleasant.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> Yeah. And in my experience with the Harry Potter<\/em> series, similarly, it’s helped me face some of those uglier sides of characters, where you go, “Man, I’d really like to just stay with my image of Dumbledore from the first six books,” and not really wanting to have to deal with everything you find out about him. But I think being able to hold all sides of people in a more intentional way is a good practice to cultivate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> And they really are great books. I think that’s the other thing this has taught me, too. Harry Potter<\/em> books, before doing this podcast, they were not “my books.” I liked them, but I didn’t grow up with them. I’m a little too old and just missed it. And I just believed in Casper. Casper said that they would work, and I was like, “Casper’s great!” And they’ve ended up being such a gift to me. They’re so good, I love them so much now, and that was just a leap of faith.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CC:<\/strong> Yes, and I love that idea of going with something because you believe in a person; I share that. We’re about out of time, but thank you so much again for chatting with me. This has been great. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

VZ:<\/strong> Thank you! It’s been a pleasure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Feature image courtesy of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Download PDF: Curtis and Zoltan, Practicing Re-Imagination While many of the articles in this issue address new directions in the academic study of religious practices, innovations and transformations of religious practices themselves are happening among practitioners all the time. To<\/p>\n

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